[manjaro-dev] manjaro-dev Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
thehands at internode.on.net
thehands at internode.on.net
Thu Dec 12 01:39:55 CET 2013
My first post in the mailing list, though I've been reading it for
some time. Hopefully I don't blow it re. how you are supposed to post
here. :)
I have something to say on this point:
2. Cancel your wiki and encourage those fresh faces to further
improve the Arch one and discourage learned helplessness.
It is my understanding that one of the prime considerations
concerning the content of the Manjaro wiki, is that it be written in a
fashion that new GNU/Linux users can understand. The ArchWiki is not
written in that fashion, it expects the user to have some experience
with GNU/Linux & also to know how to search for anything that they
don't know about a topic, be the search within their wiki (where it is
policy not to duplicate information) or elsewhere.
If I went over to the ArchWiki, using my wiki editing privileges
there & started rewriting their pages to suit those who are new to
GNU/Linux, I would have my work removed font-weight: bold;">"and
discourage learned helplessness" is the kind of statement that I would
expect from someone who has no compassion for those less
knowledgeable, skilled ">On Thu 12/12/13 08:18 ,
manjaro-dev-request at manjaro.org sent:
Send manjaro-dev mailing list submissions to
manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [1]
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev [2]
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
manjaro-dev-request at manjaro.org [3]
You can reach the person managing the list at
manjaro-dev-owner at manjaro.org [4]
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of manjaro-dev digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Fwd: Manjaro vs Arch (Rob McCathie)
2. someone issues ff26 (Ringo de Kroon)
3. Re: Fwd: Manjaro vs Arch (Philip M?ller)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 00:39:59 +1100
From: Rob McCathie
To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [6]
Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] Fwd: Manjaro vs Arch
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I haven't read his article yet, but in response to just the bullet
points
made in his email:
>1. Enable Manjaro setup to run out of the Arch repositories so
people aren't locked in to your walled garden.
>2. Cancel your wiki and encourage those fresh faces to further
improve the Arch one and discourage learned helplessness.
>3. Call yourself Arch so that you get better combined numbers on
distrowatch, and more news articles. Any name is fine.
1. The clear disadvantage to operating as just a repo listed above
the
official Arch ones in pacman.conf (like how Archbang and a few others
do)
is that the concept of preventing or at least reducing the amount of
manual
intervention required by users during updates goes out the window.
Manjaro
either wants to offer this or it doesn't, if it doesn't, then he's
right,
but my understanding is it does.
Also I don't think it's at all accurate to refer to Manjaro as a
"walled
garden", it utterly isn't.
2. This should be considered carefully. I basically agree with him
that any
information that can be universally applied to both Arch and Manjaro
(which
is like 98% of everything) should probably be going on the Arch wiki.
It's
illogical and inefficient to split the information across 2 wikis
when the
entire purpose of a wiki is to be a publicly created information
source.
3. I simply disagree here. Too much brand recognition and goodwill
has
already come "Manjaro's" way. Even if Manjaro were just a repo to be
run in
conjunction with the official Arch repos, I'd still see it as
advantageous
to keep the Manjaro name. Plus so long as Manjaro does a good job of
catering to it's target user, i don't see that it does Arch any
damage 9if
anything, only benefit). Even if it didn't do a good job, Arch(ers)
can
just laugh and be like "yeah well, run Arch, not some
fork/repo/whatever".
>One of the benefits of the above is that you will run your efforts
more efficiently, so you will have more time to work on the important
problems rather than all the grunt work of creating a full distro and
a new brand, dealing with security bugs, keeping up with the flood of
packages, needing to manage mirrors wikis, forums, etc. Do you want to
make a new brand, or do you want to help Arch kick ass? Also, how much
are you giving back to Arch right now?
I think he doesn't understand the where the boundaries of Manjaro's
target
audience frontier are, or what's required to satisfy them. Though,
sometimes I think I don't exactly understand those boundaries either.
PS. Please excuse my email formatting if it's shotty. When I
initially
installed Manjaro I decided I wanted to re-evaluate my email client
choices
and just have never got around to it, been using webmail interfaces,
they're generally not awesome.
Regards,
Rob.
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
> Hmm, I got an interesting e-mail today in my inbox.
> What do you think?
>
> greez
>
> Phil
>
> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Manjaro vs Arch Date:
Sat,
> 7 Dec 2013 22:38:59 -0500 From: Keith Curtis To:
> philm at manjaro.org [10]
>
> Hi;
>
> Manjaro is an interesting project. Adding a simpler first step into
> the Arch world is an extremely valuable idea.
>
> However, I have some suggestions:
>
> 1. Enable Manjaro setup to run out of the Arch repositories so
people
> aren't locked in to your walled garden.
> 2. Cancel your wiki and encourage those fresh faces to further
improve
> the Arch one and discourage learned helplessness.
> 3. Call yourself Arch so that you get better combined numbers on
> distrowatch, and more news articles. Any name is fine.
>
> I can understand that you might not want to consider anything so
> radical. You've probably come to love the name Manjaro, and are
> excited by the recent success and new users, etc.
>
> However, in general, it is best if people specialize. I'd love a
> pretty (HiDPI) installer that did all the right things for me
> including following the best practices from the wiki, setting up
> Plymouth, etc. That problem is plenty big for a team of your size.
I
> can think of many ways Arch could have a better out of box
experience
> but it can entirely be done from a custom ISO from the standard
> repositories and one extra. That gives you plenty of flexibility
for
> innovation, yet runs things more stream-lined for you.
>
> One of the benefits of the above is that you will run your efforts
> more efficiently, so you will have more time to work on the
important
> problems rather than all the grunt work of creating a full distro
and
> a new brand, dealing with security bugs, keeping up with the flood
of
> packages, needing to manage mirrors wikis, forums, etc. Do you want
to
> make a new brand, or do you want to help Arch kick ass? Also, how
much
> are you giving back to Arch right now?
>
> Here is an article I wrote that discusses these ideas in more
detail:http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=3389 [11]
>
> Great job! Please focus.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -Keith
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manjaro-dev mailing list
> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [12]
> http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev [13]
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: [14];
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 21:52:04 +0100
From: Ringo de Kroon
To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [16]
Subject: [manjaro-dev] someone issues ff26
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
hi someone uses firefox26 ? it looks kind of unstable... at start it
can
drop out but at second or 3th time it stay cool...
had rebooted into 3.10 kernel but yeah same got this:
java version "1.7.0_45"
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea 2.4.3) (ArchLinux build
7.u45_2.4.3-1-x86_64)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 24.45-b08, mixed mode)
/build/icedtea-web-java7/src/icedtea-web-1.4.1/plugin/icedteanp/IcedTeaNPPlugin.cc:652:
thread 0x7f48bab66cc0: Error: Unknown plugin value requested.
[ringo at manjaro [18] ~]$ firefox
trying recreate it but failed on that :'(
--
ringo de kroon
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 22:16:14 +0100
From: Philip M?ller
To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [21]
Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] Fwd: Manjaro vs Arch
Message-ID:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
On 12/11/2013 02:39 PM, Rob McCathie wrote:
> I haven't read his article yet, but in response to just the bullet
> points made in his email:
>
> >1. Enable Manjaro setup to run out of the Arch repositories so
people aren't locked in to your walled garden.
> >2. Cancel your wiki and encourage those fresh faces to further
improve the Arch one and discourage learned helplessness.
> >3. Call yourself Arch so that you get better combined numbers on
distrowatch, and more news articles. Any name is fine.
>
>
> 1. The clear disadvantage to operating as just a repo listed above
the
> official Arch ones in pacman.conf (like how Archbang and a few
others
> do) is that the concept of preventing or at least reducing the
amount
> of manual intervention required by users during updates goes out
the
> window. Manjaro either wants to offer this or it doesn't, if it
> doesn't, then he's right, but my understanding is it does.
> Also I don't think it's at all accurate to refer to Manjaro as a
> "walled garden", it utterly isn't.
There is one simple reason we clone Arch-Repositories on our own
server
framework we have built up on many locations thru the world:
- this is the only way that we are in control when and what we want
to
update.
Arch is sometimes fast in updates and it doesn't care much about
3rd-party development groups. I had this situation with KDEmod I did
under the Chakra Project. Our packages simply broke time to time and
it
was really frustrating to rebuild all those packages all the time.
Manjaro isn't locked at all. We simply slow down the updates. You can
do
almost all what you do with a normal Archlinux installation.
>
> 2. This should be considered carefully. I basically agree with him
> that any information that can be universally applied to both Arch
and
> Manjaro (which is like 98% of everything) should probably be going
on
> the Arch wiki. It's illogical and inefficient to split the
information
> across 2 wikis when the entire purpose of a wiki is to be a
publicly
> created information source.
The Arch-Wiki is filled with almost everything. The Manjaro-Wiki on
the
other hand is specific on things you need most in Manjaro and it is
written for our distribution in mind being user friendly and easy to
understand. We write articles for beginners, Arch wiki is
understandable
but written for more advanced users. Each wiki has its purpose.
>
> 3. I simply disagree here. Too much brand recognition and goodwill
has
> already come "Manjaro's" way. Even if Manjaro were just a repo to
be
> run in conjunction with the official Arch repos, I'd still see it
as
> advantageous to keep the Manjaro name. Plus so long as Manjaro does
a
> good job of catering to it's target user, i don't see that it does
> Arch any damage 9if anything, only benefit). Even if it didn't do a
> good job, Arch(ers) can just laugh and be like "yeah well, run
Arch,
> not some fork/repo/whatever".
This will never happen. Manjaro is a great brand and well known. If
you
want pure Arch you can go for Antergos, an Arch-Distrolet we work
hard
together.
For example, thus is based on cnchi and we help each other to solve
bugs. Also we try to use the same code as much as possible.
> >One of the benefits of the above is that you will run your efforts
more efficiently, so you will have more time to work on the important
problems rather than all the grunt work of creating a full distro and
a new brand, dealing with security bugs, keeping up with the flood of
packages, needing to manage mirrors wikis, forums, etc. Do you want to
make a new brand, or do you want to help Arch kick ass? Also, how much
are you giving back to Arch right now?
> I think he doesn't understand the where the boundaries of Manjaro's
> target audience frontier are, or what's required to satisfy them.
> Though, sometimes I think I don't exactly understand those
boundaries
> either.
>
>
> PS. Please excuse my email formatting if it's shotty. When I
initially
> installed Manjaro I decided I wanted to re-evaluate my email client
> choices and just have never got around to it, been using webmail
> interfaces, they're generally not awesome.
>
> Regards,
> Rob.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Philip M?ller > wrote:
>
> Hmm, I got an interesting e-mail today in my inbox.
> What do you think?
>
> greez
>
> Phil
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Manjaro vs Arch
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 22:38:59 -0500
> From: Keith Curtis
> To: philm at manjaro.org
>
>
>
> Hi;
>
> Manjaro is an interesting project. Adding a simpler first step into
> the Arch world is an extremely valuable idea.
>
> However, I have some suggestions:
>
> 1. Enable Manjaro setup to run out of the Arch repositories so
people
> aren't locked in to your walled garden.
> 2. Cancel your wiki and encourage those fresh faces to further
improve
> the Arch one and discourage learned helplessness.
> 3. Call yourself Arch so that you get better combined numbers on
> distrowatch, and more news articles. Any name is fine.
>
> I can understand that you might not want to consider anything so
> radical. You've probably come to love the name Manjaro, and are
> excited by the recent success and new users, etc.
>
> However, in general, it is best if people specialize. I'd love a
> pretty (HiDPI) installer that did all the right things for me
> including following the best practices from the wiki, setting up
> Plymouth, etc. That problem is plenty big for a team of your size.
I
> can think of many ways Arch could have a better out of box
experience
> but it can entirely be done from a custom ISO from the standard
> repositories and one extra. That gives you plenty of flexibility
for
> innovation, yet runs things more stream-lined for you.
>
> One of the benefits of the above is that you will run your efforts
> more efficiently, so you will have more time to work on the
important
> problems rather than all the grunt work of creating a full distro
and
> a new brand, dealing with security bugs, keeping up with the flood
of
> packages, needing to manage mirrors wikis, forums, etc. Do you want
to
> make a new brand, or do you want to help Arch kick ass? Also, how
much
> are you giving back to Arch right now?
>
> Here is an article I wrote that discusses these ideas in more
detail:
> http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=3389 [27]
>
> Great job! Please focus.
>
> What do you think?
>
> -Keith
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manjaro-dev mailing list
> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
> http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev [29]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manjaro-dev mailing list
> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [30]
> http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev [31]
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: [32];
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
_______________________________________________
manjaro-dev mailing list
manjaro-dev at manjaro.org [33]
http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev [34]
------------------------------
End of manjaro-dev Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
******************************************
Links:
------
[1] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[2] http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
[3] mailto:manjaro-dev-request at manjaro.org
[4] mailto:manjaro-dev-owner at manjaro.org
[5] mailto:korrode at gmail.com
[6] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[7] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[8] mailto:keithcu at gmail.com
[9] mailto:keithcu at gmail.com
[10] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[11] http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=3389
[12] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[13] http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
[14]
http://lists.manjaro.org/pipermail/manjaro-dev/attachments/20131212/bf49646f/attachment-0001.html>
[15] mailto:ringodekroon at gmail.com
[16] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[17] mailto:52A8D074.6050003 at gmail.com
[18] mailto:ringo at manjaro
[19] mailto:ringodekroon at gmail.com
[20] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[21] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[22] mailto:52A8D61E.7040906 at manjaro.org
[23] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[24] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[25] mailto:keithcu at gmail.com
[26] mailto:philm at manjaro.org
[27] http://keithcu.com/wordpress/?p=3389
[28] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[29] http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
[30] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[31] http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
[32]
http://lists.manjaro.org/pipermail/manjaro-dev/attachments/20131211/c7dbfb29/attachment.html>
[33] mailto:manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
[34] http://lists.manjaro.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.manjaro.org/pipermail/manjaro-dev/attachments/20131212/57906e9b/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the manjaro-dev
mailing list