[manjaro-dev] sonar profiles
Mark Peveto
southernprince73 at gmail.com
Sat Dec 17 18:17:04 CET 2016
Are we still pulling from 16.10-profiles?
Mark Peveto
Registered Linux user 600552
On 12/17/2016 10:24 AM, kendell clark wrote:
> hi
>
> I agree with mark. But when I was complaining about profile scrutiny,
> I didn't mean I wanted cart blansch to do whatever I want and not have
> anyone to answer to. That was never, ever my intention. What I meant
> was phil's talk of pull requests. You see, I don't really know how to
> use them and the only way I do know how to generate them is very
> complex. As for the programs not being needed, that's a sticky area.
> We the sonar devs do want to be able to add programs if we think it
> will improve either the accessibility, usability or convenience of our
> users, but at the same time, we don't want to give the impression that
> we know best and everyone else's opinion isn't important, which sounds
> exactly what we did, which was completely unintentional. You were the
> one who removed a lot of our custom software a few months back, and my
> initial reaction was what the hell, but once you explained why I
> cooled off. Our users though ... I got ripped a new one for that, even
> though I explained that it was temporary, and you, along with phil and
> burnhard did a hell of a job with the profiles. All the software we
> add is for a purpose, and I usually have a comment before the package
> name explaining why, but I have forgotten a few times. Do you guys
> want a report on what software we want to include and why? Because
> i'll gladly provide one, I know what software we include and why. Most
> of it is just default programs for things like media playback, instant
> messenging, etc. As mark said we try to provide at least one very
> good, open source program to do most common tasks, like playing,
> converting, editing and recording audio and video, ripping cd's and
> dvd's, voice and text messenging, and so on. But you have some very
> good points, we need to have some kind of limits, otherwise the images
> will grow gigantic and anyone trying to build them is going to have
> some time building a 2.1 gb iso image. So I completely agree we need
> to trim the selection down. The problem is that I can't just
> unilaterally remove bits from sonar or some user somewhere is going to
> whine and complain, and usually compare our distro to a certain
> popular OS taht comes preinstalled on computers, and all that does is
> disappoint and anger me, so I try to minimize that. Sometimes I come
> on hear and rant, and I want to formally apologize for that. If I do
> that again, which I'll try to prevent, it isn't because any of you
> guys, which help sonar more than I can describe, it's usually because
> someone just happened to say something at the wrong point to tip me
> over the edge. This was the case with phil's pull request bit. I'd had
> one too many complaints that day and it was just too much. Have we
> ruined our relationship with you guys permanently? I really, really
> hope not, because as i keep saying, without you guys sonar would be
> nothing. I'm also a manjaro packager assuming I haven't been barred
> access, and I did that to help sonar yes, but also to make manjaro
> more accessible. The more packages it has that are accessible the
> easier it will be to eventually mak sonar just accessible manjaro.
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Kendell Clark
>
>
>
> On 12/17/2016 9:34 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:
>> Marcus,
>>
>> I've never met you, and I'm not sure I like the tone our first
>> conversation may take. I'm the newest developer to the team, so
>> plese pardon my questions. I'm curious, when do you suggest we add
>> in these programs that you consider not needed? Is that for the end
>> user to do? We try to eliminate as much work for the end user as
>> possible. A lot of the programs are indeed needed, which is why, I
>> believe, they get added back in. Is there a better way to negotiate
>> this between us, and you folks and still get the programs we need
>> added in? For myself, I want to see a good working relationship
>> between Sonar and Manjaro, but I think at this point, we're all
>> frustrated with each other. If your'e telling us we can't have the
>> programs we need, though, I'm afraid we may run into some problems,
>> especialy with our end users. Do you see where I'm coming from?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark Peveto
>> Registered Linux user 600552
>>
>> On 12/17/2016 09:24 AM, artoo wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>> regarding sonar profiles, it is very difficult to sync with the
>>> sonar people.
>>>
>>> As soon as I fixed some problem, somebody from sonar adds tons of
>>> packages again. This is a big nono. I understand you sonar guys
>>> don't have sight, so we need some basic profile to test against
>>> without any bloat, such as video or audio software, paint programs
>>> whatever bloat.
>>>
>>> The basic sonar profiles are supposed to provide a basic desktop
>>> environment, and it is supposed to start all required services you
>>> guys need for speech output, eg orca, ibus. This is incredibly
>>> difficult to achieve, if packages are constantly readded, and tons
>>> of unneeded files end up in either profile or desktop-settings.
>>>
>>>
>>> @Phil
>>>
>>>
>>> I think I will sit down over holidays and write up a little
>>> guideline which must be followed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 17.12.2016 um 12:00 schrieb manjaro-dev-request at manjaro.org:
>>>> Send manjaro-dev mailing list submissions to
>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>>
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>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of manjaro-dev digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: my report on the mate basic image (kendell clark)
>>>> 2. Re: my report on the mate basic image (Mark Peveto)
>>>> 3. Re: my report on the mate basic image (kendell clark)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:26:23 -0600
>>>> From: kendell clark <coffeekingms at gmail.com>
>>>> To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>>> Message-ID: <68c131f5-197f-980e-0e45-b8d2e42fd66d at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> hi
>>>>
>>>> Got it. I'll save these instructions so I can look at them. So basic
>>>> first, then full. This means I'll build a mate basic image and burn it
>>>> on a flash drive after I test the mate full image I've already built.
>>>> Completely agreed, basic means basic, not a lot of other stuff. If
>>>> that
>>>> doesn't work it doesn't matter how much extra stuff you cram in if
>>>> what
>>>> it's designed for doesn't work.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Kendell Clark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/16/2016 1:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have
>>>>> different ways
>>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>>> them
>>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>>> other
>>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools
>>>>> and
>>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your
>>>>> changes and
>>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>>> checks the
>>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>>
>>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed
>>>>> all the
>>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>>> review
>>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>>> code.
>>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a
>>>>> solid base.
>>>>>
>>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>>> images
>>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>>> images
>>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>>
>>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>>> issue for
>>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>>> starting.
>>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>>> missing
>>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two
>>>>> issues
>>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on
>>>>> which
>>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>>> changes on
>>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate
>>>>> some time
>>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have
>>>>> to move
>>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>>> community
>>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find
>>>>> some free
>>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who
>>>>> works with
>>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>>> month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:05:26 -0600
>>>> From: Mark Peveto <southernprince73 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: Philip M?ller <philm at manjaro.org>, manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>>> Message-ID: <8c2727a3-0d7d-a43b-2198-1600bae86628 at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> The report I sent you was based on the mate basic image. I thought I
>>>> had clarified that, but maybe not. If i didn't, my appologies. All
>>>> i'd
>>>> written was based squarely on the mate basic image.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to go piece by piece, I'm not sure how to start for you.
>>>> All i know to do is report the issues that don't work once I have it
>>>> installed. This image I wrote about was instaled on a hard drive,
>>>> not a
>>>> virtual machine, or a flash drive. Maybe that'll help? I try to
>>>> be as
>>>> clear as I can in these reports, so sorry if I left something out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mark Peveto
>>>> Registered Linux user 600552
>>>>
>>>> On 12/16/2016 01:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have
>>>>> different ways
>>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>>> them
>>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>>> other
>>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools
>>>>> and
>>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your
>>>>> changes and
>>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>>> checks the
>>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>>
>>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed
>>>>> all the
>>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>>> review
>>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>>> code.
>>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a
>>>>> solid base.
>>>>>
>>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>>> images
>>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>>> images
>>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>>
>>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>>> issue for
>>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>>> starting.
>>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>>> missing
>>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two
>>>>> issues
>>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on
>>>>> which
>>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>>> changes on
>>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate
>>>>> some time
>>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have
>>>>> to move
>>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>>> community
>>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find
>>>>> some free
>>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who
>>>>> works with
>>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>>> month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:52:48 -0600
>>>> From: kendell clark <coffeekingms at gmail.com>
>>>> To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>>> Message-ID: <d38439cd-49f2-b5e4-1b55-83bb077d696f at gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>>
>>>> hi
>>>>
>>>> Let me try to understand this. I hope you're not threatening to cut
>>>> sonar out of manjaro, because although I can be annoying and rant, I
>>>> hope I haven't done something that serious. Without you guys,
>>>> regardless
>>>> of how busy you get sonar wouldn't be the distro it is today. We'd
>>>> still
>>>> be trying to figure out how to get our custom background and sound
>>>> scheme to work. You, burnhard landauer, stefano, and the rest of the
>>>> manjaro devs have helped in so many ways I can't count them. You
>>>> want us
>>>> to let you guys take over the profiles until they're proven stable, ok
>>>> that's fine, but I don't really like the fact that our commits are
>>>> subjected to such scrutiny, unless it's not just our commits but
>>>> everyone's, then I withdraw my complaint. The entire sonar team no
>>>> longer wants to take sonar away from the manjaro devs, that was
>>>> only for
>>>> a few days and I never wanted it at all, I had to do some fast talking
>>>> to talk the other devs around though. I did get the memo about custom
>>>> software going into packages-mate, packages-gnome, etc. That makes
>>>> sense. The custom software isn't important right now anyway, they're
>>>> just packages in our repos, so they can be added any time. The
>>>> important
>>>> thing is that sonar do what it's supposed to do, which is to come up
>>>> talking and provide an accessible installer and accessible
>>>> programs. I'm
>>>> not sure if I've made this clear or not, but if not, I do not, and
>>>> never
>>>> have blamed you guys for the problems we've had with calamares. That's
>>>> out of you guys' control, and is an orca or at-spi issue, nothing you
>>>> guys did. I do wish accessibility bugs got a higher priority, but this
>>>> is not you guys' problem either, but a general open source and linux
>>>> issue. As for focusing on a few bugs at a time, I completely agree.
>>>> Are
>>>> we not communicating properly? Am I not emailing the right people
>>>> or not
>>>> being clear enough, how do we fix this? Our goal as a project is to
>>>> eventually become just another manjaro profile, released with the same
>>>> schedule the other profiles are. We're not there yet, but that's our
>>>> goal. To be accessible manjaro. For that to happen we, the sonar
>>>> developers and you guys, the manjaro developers, need to work as a
>>>> team
>>>> seemlessly, without all these little things cropping up. I'm not
>>>> blaming
>>>> anyone for this at all, I'm just saying the profiles have to work and
>>>> work all the time for sonar to be stable enough to be just another
>>>> manjaro edition, and they're not there yet. So to summarize. You
>>>> want us
>>>> to focus on one profile. That seems to be the mate basic edition,
>>>> since
>>>> once that works the full edition should also just work, since all
>>>> it is
>>>> is the basic mate edtion with extra software. I don't think it quite
>>>> works taht way yet, but I'm willing to work with whoever to make that
>>>> happen, even if it means doing the dreaded pull requests lol.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Kendell Clark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/16/2016 1:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have
>>>>> different ways
>>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>>> them
>>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>>> other
>>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools
>>>>> and
>>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your
>>>>> changes and
>>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>>> checks the
>>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>>
>>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed
>>>>> all the
>>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>>> review
>>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>>> code.
>>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a
>>>>> solid base.
>>>>>
>>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>>> images
>>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>>> images
>>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>>
>>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>>> issue for
>>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>>> starting.
>>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>>> missing
>>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two
>>>>> issues
>>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on
>>>>> which
>>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>>
>>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>>> changes on
>>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate
>>>>> some time
>>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have
>>>>> to move
>>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>>> community
>>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find
>>>>> some free
>>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who
>>>>> works with
>>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>>> month.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>>
>>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> End of manjaro-dev Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8
>>>> ******************************************
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
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>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>
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