[manjaro-dev] sonar profiles
kendell clark
coffeekingms at gmail.com
Sat Dec 17 17:24:21 CET 2016
hi
I agree with mark. But when I was complaining about profile scrutiny, I
didn't mean I wanted cart blansch to do whatever I want and not have
anyone to answer to. That was never, ever my intention. What I meant was
phil's talk of pull requests. You see, I don't really know how to use
them and the only way I do know how to generate them is very complex.
As for the programs not being needed, that's a sticky area. We the
sonar devs do want to be able to add programs if we think it will
improve either the accessibility, usability or convenience of our users,
but at the same time, we don't want to give the impression that we know
best and everyone else's opinion isn't important, which sounds exactly
what we did, which was completely unintentional. You were the one who
removed a lot of our custom software a few months back, and my initial
reaction was what the hell, but once you explained why I cooled off. Our
users though ... I got ripped a new one for that, even though I
explained that it was temporary, and you, along with phil and burnhard
did a hell of a job with the profiles. All the software we add is for a
purpose, and I usually have a comment before the package name explaining
why, but I have forgotten a few times. Do you guys want a report on what
software we want to include and why? Because i'll gladly provide one, I
know what software we include and why. Most of it is just default
programs for things like media playback, instant messenging, etc. As
mark said we try to provide at least one very good, open source program
to do most common tasks, like playing, converting, editing and recording
audio and video, ripping cd's and dvd's, voice and text messenging, and
so on. But you have some very good points, we need to have some kind of
limits, otherwise the images will grow gigantic and anyone trying to
build them is going to have some time building a 2.1 gb iso image. So I
completely agree we need to trim the selection down. The problem is that
I can't just unilaterally remove bits from sonar or some user somewhere
is going to whine and complain, and usually compare our distro to a
certain popular OS taht comes preinstalled on computers, and all that
does is disappoint and anger me, so I try to minimize that. Sometimes I
come on hear and rant, and I want to formally apologize for that. If I
do that again, which I'll try to prevent, it isn't because any of you
guys, which help sonar more than I can describe, it's usually because
someone just happened to say something at the wrong point to tip me over
the edge. This was the case with phil's pull request bit. I'd had one
too many complaints that day and it was just too much. Have we ruined
our relationship with you guys permanently? I really, really hope not,
because as i keep saying, without you guys sonar would be nothing. I'm
also a manjaro packager assuming I haven't been barred access, and I did
that to help sonar yes, but also to make manjaro more accessible. The
more packages it has that are accessible the easier it will be to
eventually mak sonar just accessible manjaro.
Thanks
Kendell Clark
On 12/17/2016 9:34 AM, Mark Peveto wrote:
> Marcus,
>
> I've never met you, and I'm not sure I like the tone our first
> conversation may take. I'm the newest developer to the team, so plese
> pardon my questions. I'm curious, when do you suggest we add in these
> programs that you consider not needed? Is that for the end user to
> do? We try to eliminate as much work for the end user as possible. A
> lot of the programs are indeed needed, which is why, I believe, they
> get added back in. Is there a better way to negotiate this between
> us, and you folks and still get the programs we need added in? For
> myself, I want to see a good working relationship between Sonar and
> Manjaro, but I think at this point, we're all frustrated with each
> other. If your'e telling us we can't have the programs we need,
> though, I'm afraid we may run into some problems, especialy with our
> end users. Do you see where I'm coming from?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mark Peveto
> Registered Linux user 600552
>
> On 12/17/2016 09:24 AM, artoo wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>> regarding sonar profiles, it is very difficult to sync with the sonar
>> people.
>>
>> As soon as I fixed some problem, somebody from sonar adds tons of
>> packages again. This is a big nono. I understand you sonar guys don't
>> have sight, so we need some basic profile to test against without any
>> bloat, such as video or audio software, paint programs whatever bloat.
>>
>> The basic sonar profiles are supposed to provide a basic desktop
>> environment, and it is supposed to start all required services you
>> guys need for speech output, eg orca, ibus. This is incredibly
>> difficult to achieve, if packages are constantly readded, and tons of
>> unneeded files end up in either profile or desktop-settings.
>>
>>
>> @Phil
>>
>>
>> I think I will sit down over holidays and write up a little guideline
>> which must be followed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>> Marcus
>>
>>
>> Am 17.12.2016 um 12:00 schrieb manjaro-dev-request at manjaro.org:
>>> Send manjaro-dev mailing list submissions to
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of manjaro-dev digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: my report on the mate basic image (kendell clark)
>>> 2. Re: my report on the mate basic image (Mark Peveto)
>>> 3. Re: my report on the mate basic image (kendell clark)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 13:26:23 -0600
>>> From: kendell clark <coffeekingms at gmail.com>
>>> To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>> Message-ID: <68c131f5-197f-980e-0e45-b8d2e42fd66d at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>
>>> hi
>>>
>>> Got it. I'll save these instructions so I can look at them. So basic
>>> first, then full. This means I'll build a mate basic image and burn it
>>> on a flash drive after I test the mate full image I've already built.
>>> Completely agreed, basic means basic, not a lot of other stuff. If that
>>> doesn't work it doesn't matter how much extra stuff you cram in if what
>>> it's designed for doesn't work.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Kendell Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2016 1:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have different
>>>> ways
>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>> them
>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>> other
>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>
>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools and
>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your changes
>>>> and
>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>> checks the
>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed all
>>>> the
>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>> review
>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>> code.
>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a solid
>>>> base.
>>>>
>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>> images
>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>> images
>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>
>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>> issue for
>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>> starting.
>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>
>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>> missing
>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two issues
>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on which
>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>
>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>> changes on
>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate some
>>>> time
>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>
>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have to
>>>> move
>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>> community
>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find some
>>>> free
>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>
>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who works
>>>> with
>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>> month.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>
>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 14:05:26 -0600
>>> From: Mark Peveto <southernprince73 at gmail.com>
>>> To: Philip M?ller <philm at manjaro.org>, manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>> Message-ID: <8c2727a3-0d7d-a43b-2198-1600bae86628 at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> The report I sent you was based on the mate basic image. I thought I
>>> had clarified that, but maybe not. If i didn't, my appologies. All i'd
>>> written was based squarely on the mate basic image.
>>>
>>> If you want to go piece by piece, I'm not sure how to start for you.
>>> All i know to do is report the issues that don't work once I have it
>>> installed. This image I wrote about was instaled on a hard drive,
>>> not a
>>> virtual machine, or a flash drive. Maybe that'll help? I try to be as
>>> clear as I can in these reports, so sorry if I left something out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mark Peveto
>>> Registered Linux user 600552
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2016 01:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have different
>>>> ways
>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>> them
>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>> other
>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>
>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools and
>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your changes
>>>> and
>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>> checks the
>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed all
>>>> the
>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>> review
>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>> code.
>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a solid
>>>> base.
>>>>
>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>> images
>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>> images
>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>
>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>> issue for
>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>> starting.
>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>
>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>> missing
>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two issues
>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on which
>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>
>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>> changes on
>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate some
>>>> time
>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>
>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have to
>>>> move
>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>> community
>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find some
>>>> free
>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>
>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who works
>>>> with
>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>> month.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>
>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 21:52:48 -0600
>>> From: kendell clark <coffeekingms at gmail.com>
>>> To: manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manjaro-dev] my report on the mate basic image
>>> Message-ID: <d38439cd-49f2-b5e4-1b55-83bb077d696f at gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>>
>>> hi
>>>
>>> Let me try to understand this. I hope you're not threatening to cut
>>> sonar out of manjaro, because although I can be annoying and rant, I
>>> hope I haven't done something that serious. Without you guys,
>>> regardless
>>> of how busy you get sonar wouldn't be the distro it is today. We'd
>>> still
>>> be trying to figure out how to get our custom background and sound
>>> scheme to work. You, burnhard landauer, stefano, and the rest of the
>>> manjaro devs have helped in so many ways I can't count them. You
>>> want us
>>> to let you guys take over the profiles until they're proven stable, ok
>>> that's fine, but I don't really like the fact that our commits are
>>> subjected to such scrutiny, unless it's not just our commits but
>>> everyone's, then I withdraw my complaint. The entire sonar team no
>>> longer wants to take sonar away from the manjaro devs, that was only
>>> for
>>> a few days and I never wanted it at all, I had to do some fast talking
>>> to talk the other devs around though. I did get the memo about custom
>>> software going into packages-mate, packages-gnome, etc. That makes
>>> sense. The custom software isn't important right now anyway, they're
>>> just packages in our repos, so they can be added any time. The
>>> important
>>> thing is that sonar do what it's supposed to do, which is to come up
>>> talking and provide an accessible installer and accessible programs.
>>> I'm
>>> not sure if I've made this clear or not, but if not, I do not, and
>>> never
>>> have blamed you guys for the problems we've had with calamares. That's
>>> out of you guys' control, and is an orca or at-spi issue, nothing you
>>> guys did. I do wish accessibility bugs got a higher priority, but this
>>> is not you guys' problem either, but a general open source and linux
>>> issue. As for focusing on a few bugs at a time, I completely agree. Are
>>> we not communicating properly? Am I not emailing the right people or
>>> not
>>> being clear enough, how do we fix this? Our goal as a project is to
>>> eventually become just another manjaro profile, released with the same
>>> schedule the other profiles are. We're not there yet, but that's our
>>> goal. To be accessible manjaro. For that to happen we, the sonar
>>> developers and you guys, the manjaro developers, need to work as a team
>>> seemlessly, without all these little things cropping up. I'm not
>>> blaming
>>> anyone for this at all, I'm just saying the profiles have to work and
>>> work all the time for sonar to be stable enough to be just another
>>> manjaro edition, and they're not there yet. So to summarize. You
>>> want us
>>> to focus on one profile. That seems to be the mate basic edition, since
>>> once that works the full edition should also just work, since all it is
>>> is the basic mate edtion with extra software. I don't think it quite
>>> works taht way yet, but I'm willing to work with whoever to make that
>>> happen, even if it means doing the dreaded pull requests lol.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Kendell Clark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2016 1:01 PM, Philip M?ller wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> maybe you guys didn't got my proposal on how Manjaro-Developers fix
>>>> ISO-Profiles when doing a new profile or recreate it from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> That is exactly why some developers don't get it. We have different
>>>> ways
>>>> to create stuff. Developers with sight use branches and pull requests
>>>> and review the code before it gets merged line by line and discuss
>>>> them
>>>> first a lot. This results in better quality. Only if at least two
>>>> other
>>>> developers than the author approve it, we merge it normally.
>>>>
>>>> Then there are the core developers originally working on the tools and
>>>> such. In the development phase you can just commit all your changes
>>>> and
>>>> fix them on the go as you wish. Then, when it is considered stable we
>>>> create a new branch and go on with bugfixes using the pull request
>>>> approach when needed. However at least another core developer
>>>> checks the
>>>> codes afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> That out in the open we agreed to help you guys out. We saw a lot of
>>>> caveats with your code, so Stefano stripped it down and removed all
>>>> the
>>>> nonsense. Then he started to fix the basics and asked you just to
>>>> review
>>>> it and report back your findings. We never asked you to change any
>>>> code.
>>>> That will be done by Manjaro developers first until we have a solid
>>>> base.
>>>>
>>>> We use always the basic profiles first for development. The full
>>>> images
>>>> are only the same with additionally added applications. The basic
>>>> images
>>>> always include the minimalistic desktop with basic features and not
>>>> extra applications and eye candy.
>>>>
>>>> So we had the issue with 'Thus' not working, which was a major
>>>> issue for
>>>> you guys. Then we had some issue with key-binding and orca not
>>>> starting.
>>>> Good. At least in the live session we have fixed that.
>>>>
>>>> Next step would be to install it on real hardware and review the
>>>> missing
>>>> points and issues given with that fact. Then we pick one or two issues
>>>> and prioritise them. We will work then together on these to get them
>>>> solved. Only when all the showstopper bugs are gone we decide on which
>>>> applications may be useful or we still have missed.
>>>>
>>>> So please, review the given profiles as they are without code
>>>> changes on
>>>> your own and point out what should be fixed first. We dedicate some
>>>> time
>>>> for you guys, so we also don't want to waste it.
>>>>
>>>> If we don't get to an agreement on it soon we are sorry and have to
>>>> move
>>>> on without Sonar using Manjaro as base.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this approach is to everybody clear now. If we make it before
>>>> Christmas we can't tell, as Sonar doesn't have yet any high priority
>>>> from Manjaro Development point of view. That is why Stefano, a
>>>> community
>>>> maintainer invests some time on it and I support him if I find some
>>>> free
>>>> time. He is lead and what he tells should be accepted.
>>>>
>>>> Some issues are so complex, that they might need somebody who works
>>>> with
>>>> the new tools more often than you guys did in the past couple of
>>>> month.
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes the issues are logical and easy to solve. Before changing
>>>> something, ask for advice. Maybe there exists already an solution.
>>>>
>>>> greez, Grumpy Phil
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manjaro-dev mailing list
>>> manjaro-dev at manjaro.org
>>> http://lists.manjaro.org/mailman/listinfo/manjaro-dev
>>>
>>>
>>> End of manjaro-dev Digest, Vol 33, Issue 8
>>> ******************************************
>>
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